Send picture and complete service history if possible.  (especially under
hood shots of engine compartment)  Also do she have any aftermarket parts?  
Upgrades? Upcoming service problems?   Milage/year of man./engine code..

[Sorry was WAY too tempting ^_^ ]

E->

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Distrust and caution are the|(formerly AT&T Bell Labs) Lucent Tech
   parents of Security."     |            edward.w…@att.com  
  -Benjamin Franklin         | ’89 Jetta GLI   ’84 Scirocco-2

Kohlbrenner) wrote:

<most of post snipped to save bandwidth>

>Draw your own conclusions, but just don’t bash Hondas merely because
>they are Hondas.  Some of them are pretty good cars and you might
>actually like some of the people who drive them.  It’s all just
>apples and oranges…
>Mike Kohlbrenner
><kohlb…@an.hp.com>

Good post Mike!   I find it really amusing how some people will bash a
Honda as some worthless pile of bolts, and then in the next sentence
PROUDLY boast about beating one in a street race.  Personally, IF I
didn’t think another car was worthy, I wouldn’t bother wasting the
gas, and putting the extra wear on my clutch.   I certainly wouldn’t
brag about beating a car IF I thought it was inferior.  What’s the
challenge and/or accomplishment?   There was another poster, who owned
an ’83 VW, and complained about about how late model Honda’s are
difficult to work on.  I wonder if he’s ever done any work on a late
model VW?  Mike is ABSOLUTELY correct, it’s apples and oranges.

Anyway, as a former CRX Si owner, I KNOW that Honda is capable of
building cars for the enthusiast.   It’s too bad they’ve stopped
importing a "car enthusiast’s" car, but I guess that’s more a
reflection of how they view the North American market than of their
engineering.   This is the same line of thinking that VW NA used when
they DIDN’T import any 2.9l VR6′s, or VR6 Syncro’s (i.e. not worth the
trouble).   Too bad.   So when you bash the Honda’s that you see in
North America, just remember that VW NA has also taken a few steps
down that slippery slope.  They may say "driver’s wanted", but I have
a strong feeling that, in reality, any warm body with money will do.
Let’s hope that VW NA doesn’t learn that they will sell more cars by
hanging a "GTI" nameplate on a basically standard model.  They’d NEVER
do that would they?  ;-)

Steve Sugiyama
s…@passport.ca
’92 Passat G60 Syncro

>: I think you would have to agree that Magazine numbers are not everything
>: A VW just has a feel that can’t be quantitated (spelling sucks) It just
>: feels better than other cars.

Obviously there is something great about VWs since we are all VW
freaks.
—————————————————————-

Wonderful logic

I think Honda drivers typically just like

>: reliable transportation and thats enough. The VWofAmerica people have it
>: right VW Drivers Wanted.

>Hey guys, what about having some real fun and cross-posting this to the
>rec.autos.makers.honda newsgroup!

>We can’t just trash their cars, and not be prepared to hear their
>response can we?  Any VW owner brave-enough to cross-post this thread?

>:-)

>Ryan

Yes Ryan, you guys really should.  As a Honda reader, Mustang
reader and occasional Volkswagen reader (I’m a _car_ enthusiast),
I find these last few posts very stereotypical and quite funny.  
Please make sure that the first 4-5 are reposted as they are some
of the funniest (if misguided) I’ve seen recently.

Cheers,
    Shawn

–my opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer–

Jason
’79 VW Rabbit
’80 VW GTI
’83 VW GTI
(Previously owned 83 Scirocco, 84 Scirocco Wolfsburg & No Hondas!)

 Denis J. Lajoie (dlaj…@magi.com) wrote:
: That wouldn’t be wise since 99.8% of honda owners dont know what a
: spark-plug does, they would write things based on their opinions,
: so their articles would be worthless to this newsgroup, it would
: pollute our group and piss us off when we see the dumb remarks we get
: from them. So lets be natural, that is accept that you own a supperior
: car and dont rub in their faces (i pity them), just blow-em away
: on the streets to mark your territory.

: Hey guys ! Loved your responses, dont stop know, we’re on a roll.

: I will be posting VW vs honda stories that happened to me in the
: past 5 years that i’ve owned VW’s, i’ll do this tomorrow.
: Until then…

: Jack Rabbit GTI

: (these are my own words not Denis’s,my father)

Well, I guess that’s a first…  However, I think the Harley folks have
a wee bit more fanatical devotion to their vehicles…

As far as this whole Honda bashing issue, I do have a few observations…

First, as a ’90 Civic Si owner (in addition to the ’85 GLI…), I do resent
the high level of vehicular chauvinism in this group.  It is unwarranted.

Honda did make some cars that were very fun to drive and responded very
well to "tweeks".  My Si has certainly surprised some folks at the track
driving Porsches and BMWs.  They produce engines with specific outputs
bettered only by Ferraris and Turbos.  That GS-R that you folks make fun
of is a 1.7 or 1.8 liter engine!  The VW equivalent is a 2.8 for the
same peak horsepower.  But, the problem is that it is like comparing
apples to oranges.  They are different cars produced with different
philosophies.

As another comparison, the word in the ITA ranks is that the VWs have more
horsepower, but the CRXs can outhandle them.  Don’t shoot me, that is a
quote from an IT CRX driver…

And don’t forget the days a few years back when CRXs were pretty
dominant at the auto-xs…

Alas, Honda has "sold out".  They have settled on a plain vanilla
design and sell shitloads of them.  That much I will acknowledge.
I miss the days when you could buy a Civic/CRX that could win at
the track.  No more, unless you want to spend 25K on a Prelude
VTEC (which dominate their class in the SCCA World Challenge…).

Also, I have to admit that most of the reason for Honda’s
image in a forum such as this is the people who drive them.  I agree,
some of them are poseurs with their 3" drops and 17" wheels and 200 lbs.
of woofer magnets.  But that is not all of us.  You wouldn’t know mine
from stock, but I’d be happy to run with ya’ in the twisties.  You just
might be surprised!

As far as the newsgroups go — there is a distinct difference between
the VW and Honda groups, and that is why I like the VW group.  The Honda
group has way more discussion of stereos and all that.  There doesn’t
seem to be as high a percentage of driving enthusiasts.  There is even
a Honda Performance mailing list, now.  But it’s interesting, most of
the people who wonder about 17" wheels have the newer ones…  And
those who talk about really racin’ on road courses have the older ones…

Draw your own conclusions, but just don’t bash Hondas merely because
they are Hondas.  Some of them are pretty good cars and you might
actually like some of the people who drive them.  It’s all just
apples and oranges…

Mike Kohlbrenner
<kohlb…@an.hp.com>

>I will be posting VW vs honda stories that happened to me in the
>past 5 years that i’ve owned VW’s, i’ll do this tomorrow.

VW vs. Honda
(Cylinder Head Wars)

US (Me and my brother)                  THEM (My parents)

81′ Rabbit Convertible  140k Running    84′ accord              79k  Toast
86′ GTI                 190k Still Fast 84′ primer gray civic   101k Scrap
86′ Wolfs Jetta GLI     150k Smooth     92′ civic               68k  Plastic

the good news is that my mom may be coming around with plans for a new Jetta

>Car and Driver recently reviewed the 96 VW GTI and found it to be very
>bland.  They mentioned that in the early 80′s when the GTI was first
>introduced, nothing was as quick, sporty and fuel efficient.  Today’s
GTI
>is less than exceptional.

>Honda still makes fun cars. Test drive the Del Sol VTEC, or the Prelude
>VTEC sometime.

I agree VWs are starting to turn into wussy mobiles *starting* hopefully
they will end this soft suspension and crappy tire trend soon. I think
they are trying to appeal to the "American Market" and forgetting us die
hard VW fanatics. Most of us in the US want soft cars NOT ME, ANyway it’s
funny that Car and Driver said it wasn’t so good, I think it was Road and
Track (I only read European Car) that had the GTI on the Cover with the
Title Golf Balls are Back, SO who can you really trust?

As for the V-TEch Del Sol, I’ve driven one and I liked it but I wasn’t
impressed too much. You need to rev it foreverto get any power and I
still like my Scirocco better for  One Hell of a lot less money.

>By the way, what IS the newsgroup for Honda’s?

rec.autos.makers.honda

BTW I checked it out and Yes there are many complaints about Older Hondas
there and many complaints about them becomming boring another thing that
I noticed was a lot of Hondas and Acuras for sale with 70,000 or less
miles. Usually when I see a VW for sale it has well over 100,000 miles.
My SCirocco currently has 125,000 miles and runds great <knock on wood>

In article <4n5skl$…@vista.hevanet.com>, vi…@hevanet.com says…

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

>"Denis J. Lajoie" <dlaj…@magi.com> wrote:

>>When driving my VW i tend to be a little irrational, driving on
>>instinct and sometimes pure adrenaline, so when i’m not driving i
>>know that a Honda isn’t worth the effort, but when i’m in my GTI
>>and one slips besides me with tinted windows a booming comming from
>>its radio and a toy hooked on his rear view mirror and aftermarket
>>mags and sometimes they even have neons beneath or on the liscence
>>plate. Then there is no room left for rational thought, i just floor
>>it, sometimes they get it at the first light, and sometimes not.

>I am a former GTI owner, and I loved it.  I had to get rid of it
>because the previous owner thrashed the hell out of it.  
>But now I have a black 78 Scirocco that I have slammed.  heh heh.
>I dropped a GTI 1.8L with big valve head (all port ‘n polished along
>with the intake and header matched) Nuespeed throttle body, NS cam,
>tri-Y header with full Ansa (the best all around) racing exhuast, NS
>front and rear sway bars, NS front upper and lower and rear upper tie
>support bars, 15in TSW Stealths, tasteful Zender body kit, air dam
>with PIAA halogens, and ground effects (also tastefull, not too
>cocky).  And Recaro interior.  

>There is nothing that brings a smile to my face quicker than when I am
>innocently sitting at a stoplight on a Friday night and some dumbass
>punk pulls up in his lowered Civic or Integra GS-R (ooh) all chromed
>out and revs his engine.  I work at an Acura dealership, and I know
>from vast experience that for the money, an Integra GS-R is a pussy!
>All it does is revs high.  I ALWAYS leave Hondas (and most VW’s) in
>the dust.  One evening I had a couple of punks in a purple 91 or 92
>Accord all decked out chasing me after I kicked the shit out of it
>back at the light.  All I had to do was take a corner on a dime, step
>on it, and I lost him.  

>I try not to drag muscle cars or anything with engines twice the
>weight of my car.  The only time I seriously got my ass kicked off of
>a stoplight was by a cherried Alfa Romeo Spider.  Twin cam four banger
>- bam! it was gone.

>Long live the A-1 Scirocco!!

1) The VR6 motor is _sweet_!

2) I got 185k miles on my old ’89 GTI 16v before I sold it (still running
strong, and with a solid body even in these rusty climes).  After 11k
miles on my new one, I’ve had no problems…

3) For about $1k (US) I can have the GTI handling _better_ than the
Integra.  Add AVS tires and I’ll be happy indeed…

4) Why the heck does Honda insist on putting solid lifters in their modern
street cars?  Sure, I understand that they’re good for a couple more
horsepower, and that’s enough reason to have them for a race-prepped car.
And the GS-R is a high-revver, but can’t those clever engineers come up
with a hydraulic lifter that’ll handle it?  I drive a lot (averaging over
700 miles per week) and detest doing valve adjustments.  I like the VR6′s
timing _chain_ for similar maintenance reasons.  IMHO a car’s reliability
claims are to be discounted if that car demands high levels of
maintenance.  The trick is to design a reliable, low-maintenance,
high-performance, reasonably priced car.  And that’s what we’ve got!

5) I frequently need to carry bass amps and other boxy loads; for a car of
its size, the GTI’s cargo capability can’t be beat.

Cheers,
– Bob Tillman
  ’96 GTI VR6 11k miles (_still_ stock)

>In article <4mrtil$…@ratty.wolfe.net>, nailh…@wolfenet.com (Darren
Seeman) writes:
>|>
>|>
>|>
>|> My friend (Honda owner) was watching me online the other
>|> day and was amazed that almost every message in this
>|> group was about a problem!  He joked that if there was
>|> a Honda newsgroup, there might not be anyone writing in
>|> it!  

>There is a Honda newsgroup and they get quite a bit of traffic.
>They have just as many problems posted as we do.

        It’s quite true, hondas (as they age) do have problems too. I’m a
former vw owner (80, 82 gas rabbit, 80 diesel rabbit, 82 scirocco…) and a
former honda owner (87 integra). I must say that both are well designed and
built cars. The early integras and the CRX si were probably the ‘funnest’ cars
honda ever built, and then they gave up on fun and got bland…  Hmmm funny vw
still makes the GTI. That says something. Interestingly enough I found that
the hondas cost more to fix! (at least I always paid more for parts for the
integra, and yes, it DID break sometimes)

I guess I’m trying to say that honda builds a competent, reliable, but
somewhat boring car these days. That’s fine for some people, but if you crave
excitement and character, get a vw.

=============================================================
Mark Juliano
Research Associate
Georgia Tech Research Institute
7220 Richardson Road                  Telephone:(770)528-7881
Smyrna, Georgia 30080                 Fax:(770)528-7083

email: mark.juli…@gtri.gatech.edu

"For men become myths, not by what they know, nor even by what
they achieve, but by the tasks they set for themselves."                                   Henry Kissinger in "A World Restored"